I Swear, I've Never Done This Before...

[Steven J. Weller]

Got an invite to join a screenwriting group - a real-world, meet-every-Tuesday-at-a-coffee-house kind of deal, and it's my first venture into this kind of thing. Don't really know what to expect. But I did get a .pdf of a 6-page script, and... it's just awful. Kind of a cute idea, but poorly written on just about every level - stilted dialogue, awkward format, lots of rookie mistakes. Feels like no one's actually read any of it out loud, or really imagined it in visual terms. Needs a good, solid rewri
te pass, just to bring it up to specs.

But it's my first time in a group environment like this, so I don't know the protocol.

I'm going to try to sit quietly and listen, this first meeting just to get the feel of the group, but what's the usual for this sort of thing? Do people give real notes? Do people offer alternatives? am I going to be un-invited if I make comments - friendly and constructive comments, of course - about how the usual approach is to write in an active rather than passive voice?

I'm already a little concerned, in that the guy who seems to be running the group went from referring to it as a 'group,' to a 'class.' I'm not looking for a class, thank you. Not from a bunch of strangers in a coffee shop, certainly. But I'm having a hard time looking at the sample I was sent and thinking of anything other than a red-pencil rewrite.

Thoughts?

--
Life Continues, Despite
Evidence to the Contrary

Steven

[MC]

Post by Steven J. Weller
Got an invite to join a screenwriting group - a real-world,
meet-every-Tuesday-at-a-coffee-house kind of deal, and it's my first venture
into this kind of thing. Don't really know what to expect. But I did get a
.pdf of a 6-page script, and... it's just awful. Kind of a cute idea, but
poorly written on just about every level - stilted dialogue, awkward format,
lots of rookie mistakes. Feels like no one's actually read any of it out
loud, or really imagined it in visual terms. Needs a good, solid rewri
te pass, just to bring it up to specs.
But it's my first time in a group environment like this, so I don't know the protocol.
I'm going to try to sit quietly and listen, this first meeting just to get
the feel of the group, but what's the usual for this sort of thing? Do
people give real notes? Do people offer alternatives? am I going to be
un-invited if I make comments - friendly and constructive comments, of course
- about how the usual approach is to write in an active rather than passive
voice?
I'm already a little concerned, in that the guy who seems to be running the
group went from referring to it as a 'group,' to a 'class.' I'm not looking
for a class, thank you. Not from a bunch of strangers in a coffee shop,
certainly. But I'm having a hard time looking at the sample I was sent and
thinking of anything other than a red-pencil rewrite.
Thoughts?
--
Life Continues, Despite
Evidence to the Contrary
Steven

99% certain it's a bunch of never-will-be wannabes who will utterly
resent any of the constructive criticism they claim to want and take it
deeply personally... And the guy who's running it will be a dictator.

If nothing else it will give you plenty of material for a comedy!

[Steven J. Weller]

Curious to see how it goes. The 6-pager has no name on it, so the conspiracy theorist in me wonders if it might be a test. See how the new guy reacts to something this demonstrably bad, as a way to gauge his personality and suitability to the group.

Of course, it's also possible that I'm over-thinking things.

I'll report back after Tuesday's meeting.

--
Life Continues, Despite
Evidence to the Contrary

Steven

[Marjan Alcevski]

Post by Steven J. Weller
Curious to see how it goes. The 6-pager has no name on it, so the
conspiracy theorist in me wonders if it might be a test. See how
the new guy reacts to something this demonstrably bad, as a way to
gauge his personality and suitability to the group.
Of course, it's also possible that I'm over-thinking things.
I'll report back after Tuesday's meeting.
--
Life Continues, Despite
Evidence to the Contrary
Steven

Just to be on the safe side, hold the pages over a flame and see if
anything's been written in invisible ink.

[Steven J. Weller]

Had the first meeting last night, and surprisingly, it was an entirely pleasant affair. A couple of stand-up comics, and real-live honest-to-goodness TV writer, a gal writing for a YouTube series... seven folks in all (plus at least one no-show, who;s a regular but who had a schedule conflict) and not really a clinker in the bunch! It was the gal who's script we all read and critiqued, and while it was kinda' harsh it was all done with a remarkably positive vibe. Plus, she was entirely open to it all, m
aking notes and asking follow-up questions and seemingly looking for ways to make it better. The fact that it was an actual assignment for production probably made it less about ego and more about just getting it done and getting it right, but this looks like a pretty reasonable place to hang out on Tuesday nights. It's even a very short walk from my apartment.

So I can only assume that before next week, i'll get a polite note in my inbox, telling me there isn't enough room or whatever, and to please go bother someone else.

--
Life Continues, Despite
Evidence to the Contrary

Steven

[MC]

Post by Steven J. Weller
Had the first meeting last night, and surprisingly, it was an entirely
pleasant affair. A couple of stand-up comics, and real-live
honest-to-goodness TV writer, a gal writing for a YouTube series... seven
folks in all (plus at least one no-show, who;s a regular but who had a
schedule conflict) and not really a clinker in the bunch! It was the gal
who's script we all read and critiqued, and while it was kinda' harsh it was
all done with a remarkably positive vibe. Plus, she was entirely open to it
all, m
aking notes and asking follow-up questions and seemingly looking for ways to
make it better. The fact that it was an actual assignment for production
probably made it less about ego and more about just getting it done and
getting it right, but this looks like a pretty reasonable place to hang out
on Tuesday nights. It's even a very short walk from my apartment.
So I can only assume that before next week, i'll get a polite note in my
inbox, telling me there isn't enough room or whatever, and to please go
bother someone else.
--
Life Continues, Despite
Evidence to the Contrary
Steven

Thanks for the update.

[Jeff Newman]

So ... did you go again the next Tuesday (9/10)?

MC described how probably about half of writer's groups work. So this one sounds like a pleasant exception.

I do think it's wise, when giving criticism (better described as your reaction, your thoughts ... the very word "criticism" sounds negative), to employ the sandwich technique: begin with a slice of praise, then add the critical comments (tactfully), and follow up with another positive slice.

Admittedly, sometimes it's hard to find more than a few crumbs worth of merit, but the effort is worthwhile -- both to protect egos and have the recipient more likely to hear the critique, and also for the sake of balance.

Emerging from lurk mode (for a bit),

Jeff Newman

[Paulo Joe Jingy]

Post by Jeff Newman
So ... did you go again the next Tuesday (9/10)?
MC described how probably about half of writer's groups work. So this one sounds like a pleasant exception.
I do think it's wise, when giving criticism (better described as your reaction, your thoughts ... the very word "criticism" sounds negative), to employ the sandwich technique: begin with a slice of praise, then add the critical comments (tactfully), and follow up with another positive slice.
Admittedly, sometimes it's hard to find more than a few crumbs worth of merit, but the effort is worthwhile -- both to protect egos and have the recipient more likely to hear the critique, and also for the sake of balance.
Emerging from lurk mode (for a bit),
Jeff Newman

Jeff Newman? You survived? Good luck.

[Steven J. Weller]

Post by Jeff Newman
So ... did you go again the next Tuesday (9/10)?

I did!

Post by Jeff Newman
MC described how probably about half of writer's groups work.  So this one
sounds like a pleasant exception.

So far, so good. The one working pro only made it through the first meeting
and has since dropped out, but the others are almost unique in my
experience of writers, in that they're taking fairly severe criticism with good
nature and even appreciation.

Post by Jeff Newman
I do think it's wise, when giving criticism (better described as your reaction,
your thoughts ... the very word "criticism" sounds negative), to employ the
sandwich technique: begin with a slice of praise, then add the critical
comments (tactfully), and follow up with another positive slice.

I've been very conscious of that, as I'm used to here, where harshness has
always been the preferred form of discourse. The third project for critique has
some good points (as have the others) but it also needs a lot of work; I'm
expecting this next meeting to be the one that's the most difficult, as the
writer in question has sold (and had produced) one low-budget feature.
Curious to see how he reacts when it's his own work on the block.

Post by Jeff Newman
Admittedly, sometimes it's hard to find more than a few crumbs worth of
merit, but the effort is worthwhile -- both to protect egos and have the
recipient more likely to hear the critique, and also for the sake of balance.

So far I almost feel like I'm using kid gloves, but everyone seems like they're
there to hear what people have to say, rather than to defend their work. My
own offering - a short I wrote ages ago - is next in line, so we'll see how well
I handle it all.

Post by Jeff Newman
Emerging from lurk mode (for a bit),

Glad someone is.

--
Life Continues, Despite
Evidence to the Contrary

Steven

[MC]

Post by Steven J. Weller

Post by Jeff Newman
So ... did you go again the next Tuesday (9/10)?

I did!

Post by Jeff Newman
MC described how probably about half of writer's groups work.  So this one
sounds like a pleasant exception.

So far, so good. The one working pro only made it through the first meeting
and has since dropped out, but the others are almost unique in my
experience of writers, in that they're taking fairly severe criticism with good
nature and even appreciation.

Post by Jeff Newman
I do think it's wise, when giving criticism (better described as your reaction,
your thoughts ... the very word "criticism" sounds negative), to employ the
sandwich technique: begin with a slice of praise, then add the critical
comments (tactfully), and follow up with another positive slice.

I've been very conscious of that, as I'm used to here, where harshness has
always been the preferred form of discourse. The third project for critique has
some good points (as have the others) but it also needs a lot of work; I'm
expecting this next meeting to be the one that's the most difficult, as the
writer in question has sold (and had produced) one low-budget feature.
Curious to see how he reacts when it's his own work on the block.

Post by Jeff Newman
Admittedly, sometimes it's hard to find more than a few crumbs worth of
merit, but the effort is worthwhile -- both to protect egos and have the
recipient more likely to hear the critique, and also for the sake of balance.

So far I almost feel like I'm using kid gloves, but everyone seems like they're
there to hear what people have to say, rather than to defend their work. My
own offering - a short I wrote ages ago - is next in line, so we'll see how well
I handle it all.

Post by Jeff Newman
Emerging from lurk mode (for a bit),

Glad someone is.
--
Life Continues, Despite
Evidence to the Contrary
Steven

Do keep reporting if you have the inclination.

[Steven J. Weller]

Post by MC
Do keep reporting if you have the inclination.

Tonight should be interesting. The piece we've read is the first 30 pages of a YA novel written by the guy who's (also) had a screenplay produced. It's a modern-day Holmes and Watson thing, set in working-class North Hollywood with a 14 year old detective and his sidekick. I'm a big fan of Encyclopedia Brown and The Mad Scientists Club and suchlike, so I read the pages gladly. I'd intended to read the rest of the novel (it's only 150 pages or so) but then the weekend got busy and I didn't get around to
it.

Thing is, the 30 pages are pretty stiff and creaky - not bad, just not exactly exciting. A lot more of "he is" than "he does," as I wrote in my notes, and the voice isn't 14 years old - it's a grown-up writing AS a grown-up, which is a bit of a problem. But the guy is very detail-oriented and if I'm reading him right (so far) he thinks of himself as kind of the pro of the group, so I'm curious as to how he'll react. The other two folks we've read, so far, see themselves as beginners and have been gratef
ul for the input.

Add to that that there was a bit of confusion as to who was going next (for tonight) so both a short script of mine and this guy's novel were sent out. He mentioned that he'd read my piece, and then followed up that he liked it (saying that he 'wouldn't leave me in suspense' about that), so I'll be interested to see how his reaction changes for next week, after I politely slag his novel tonight. Odd that he did mention, in telling me that he liked my very brief comedy, that he didn't personally find it f
unny - but that he could see how a lot of people would.

So, we'll see. I'll try to post some more tomorrow, assuming I'm not beaten and killed this evening.

--
Life Continues, Despite
Evidence to the Contrary

Steven

[Steven J. Weller]

There's always someone...

The de facto leader of the group is, for all practical purposes, a devo exec. A BAD devo exec. I was
pleasantly surprised at the response to last night's session; the guy who's YA novel we were trashing
was there with pen and paper, taking notes as fast as we could deliver them. No anger, no
defensiveness, not even a lot of follow-up questions. Just a definite interest in what we each had to
say about his work. Our fearless leader went last, and about 75% of his notes consisted of him saying,
"y'know." A lot of, "It's like, y'know, on page 2, where the guy says... whatever, when he says that thing,
and the other guy's all like, y'know, and there's no... I mean, when the other guy's, like, y'know, and
there isn't any... y'know."

Half an hour of that. Not in the sense that he's in any way confused, or that he's unsure of what he's
saying. Certainly not that he's asking any of us for back-up. He just doesn't seem to have any words
to describe what it is he's saying.

And for the 25% that could actually be described as 'notes' in any meaningful sense, it was mostly
ridiculous. He'd offer a suggestion that would take the narrative in a completely different direction,
then in the next breath make a counter-suggestion that went 180 degrees the other way, followed
by, "like that, y'know?" It's an Encyclopedia Brown-style detective story, pitched to 12 year olds, and
he's asking why there aren't any murders or threats of death, and maybe what it also needs are more
pizza parties to acknowledge that the kid's parents are away.

It occurred to me, as he stumbled through his notes (this wasn't just off-the-cuff), that he has
absolutely no respect for story. Not for this guy's story, not for anyone else's story, not for the whole
concept of 'story' as a logical construct or as an art form. His approach, from the beginning, has
seemed to be that his job is to make corrections, or... something. He's not there to make the thing
better, he's just there to make changes. For him, making it different, without regard to quality, seems
to be the whole purpose of the exercise.

Which, in a weird way, makes him the most valuable member of the group.

This guy, or a version of him, exists at every studio and production entity in H'wood, and most of them
are about as clueless as he is. All of them are going to give these kinds of notes, and if we're going to
work professionally, we're going to have to smile, nod, jot those notes down, and then try to figure out
how to incorporate them into rewrites. And to do so without laughing out loud or tearing out our own
eyes in the process. He's going to be good practice.

Interesting that the rest of us had a lot of the same notes; we all saw the same problems and liked the
same high points. There were disagreements on matters of style but for the most part we all
acknowledged that any and all of the stylistic things could go either way. It was only Fearless Leader
who was referencing Charles Bukowski (seriously!) as an example of how to write descriptions, for this
novel for TWELVE YEAR OLDS. The two stand-up comics actually liked the concept of "12 year old
Barfly" just as a comedy premise. They also liked my off-hand comment about Encyclopedia Brown and
the Case of Hannibal Lechter as the basis for a sketch. I told them to run with it.

I'm definitely the Old Man of the group. Which is odd, because for a long time - for what seemed like
a VERY long time - I was always the youngest guy in the room. One of the guys asked about protecting
his work, as he's going to try to send out his pilot. I went over the high points of WGA registration and
LOC form PA, and mentioned that it's not considered professional to put a copyright notice or your WGA
registration number on the title page. It was, or course, Fearless Leader who chimed in that what HE'D
heard was that you should ALWAYS put that info on the title page, just to let them know that you're
working professionally and you expect them to do so, too. To be fair, though, he wasn't the guy who
popped up with the mail-a-copy-to-yourself chestnut - that was one of the comedians.

For next week, they're reading my short script. We'll see how it goes.

--
Life Continues, Despite
Evidence to the Contrary

Steven

[Marjan Alcevski]

Post by Steven J. Weller
There's always someone...

[...]

Post by Steven J. Weller
For next week, they're reading my short script. We'll see how it goes.

I like your setup here, y'know, its got a thing thats somewhat
interesting in a way, y'know, comedians and those other people and I can
tell you're really into the narrative, like how you narrate it, y'know,
but that's also the weak link here, y'know, it doesn't read like a
story, its more like a report, y'know, a bit dry in places and also,
y'know, the digressions are sidetracking the story so maybe think about
those things, y'know.

Its a good first draft, don't get me wrong, I think you are headed in
the right direction here but, y'know, its more like we need to be there
not just hear, like, you telling us, y'know, you were there cause we
know you were there, y'know.

Oh, and I forgot, I don't think the bad guy is bad enough, he just seems
like he doesn't know a lot of stuff, y'know, maybe you should make him
more, like, evil or something along those lines.

[Paulo Joe Jingy]

Post by Steven J. Weller
Got an invite to join a screenwriting group - a real-world, meet-every-Tuesday-at-a-coffee-house kind of deal, and it's my first venture into this kind of thing. Don't really know what to expect. But I did get a .pdf of a 6-page script, and... it's just awful. Kind of a cute idea, but poorly written on just about every level - stilted dialogue, awkward format, lots of rookie mistakes. Feels like no one's actually read any of it out loud, or really imagined it in visual terms. Needs a good, solid rew

ri

Post by Steven J. Weller
te pass, just to bring it up to specs.
But it's my first time in a group environment like this, so I don't know the protocol.
I'm going to try to sit quietly and listen, this first meeting just to get the feel of the group, but what's the usual for this sort of thing? Do people give real notes? Do people offer alternatives? am I going to be un-invited if I make comments - friendly and constructive comments, of course - about how the usual approach is to write in an active rather than passive voice?
I'm already a little concerned, in that the guy who seems to be running the group went from referring to it as a 'group,' to a 'class.' I'm not looking for a class, thank you. Not from a bunch of strangers in a coffee shop, certainly. But I'm having a hard time looking at the sample I was sent and thinking of anything other than a red-pencil rewrite.
Thoughts?
--
Life Continues, Despite
Evidence to the Contrary
Steven

Live (in person) group? What (belch) I got the plague?